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	<title>Comments on: Institutional Sexism?</title>
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	<link>http://www.vicarsfamilyintraining.org.uk/archives/32</link>
	<description>on being the family of a woman training to be a priest in the Church of England</description>
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		<title>By: husband</title>
		<link>http://www.vicarsfamilyintraining.org.uk/archives/32/comment-page-1#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>husband</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I know what you mean about secular gender roles, but Synod has said &quot;yes&quot; countless times, so it&#039;s following that element of discernment too. 

Adrian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know what you mean about secular gender roles, but Synod has said &#8220;yes&#8221; countless times, so it&#8217;s following that element of discernment too. </p>
<p>Adrian</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.vicarsfamilyintraining.org.uk/archives/32/comment-page-1#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I like your &#039;Regional General Managers&#039; analogy, Adrian, but I think it serves more to mask the underlying issues than to address them — in another context, I wonder if you&#039;d want to say there was rather more to being a bishop than this?

I like the cloth ceiling image as well, and I can just imagine a sonorous voice intoning, &quot;You are now entering the Circle of Purple Worsted...&quot; &lt;i&gt;(or of course not entering, as the case may be)&lt;/i&gt;.  And yet, looking at the whole thing as if it were simply about career opportunities for church professionals is surely a bit of a caricature, as well.  At least, I hope it is.

There&#039;s an unspoken assumption in your piece, too, that the secular consensus on gender roles is the right thing for the church to follow.  Now, it may be, but I don&#039;t think that ought simply to be taken as read, as if an obvious and compelling demonstration of the essential godliness of the secular take on this were common knowledge.

(Oh, and on a purely anorak level, you always knew there was a bit more to biological maleness than &lt;i&gt;in utero&lt;/i&gt; testosterone levels...)

As a relative outsider looking in on this, I guess the Rich Brown Bus Fleet&#039;s statement must be remarkable for what it doesn&#039;t say, rather than for what it does.  The C of E does &#039;emollient&#039; supremely well!

Overall, I&#039;m left with the thought that, to the extent that this Apostolic Constitution business represents a sad refusal to acknowledge a case carefully, gently and persuasively made, it&#039;s a shame.  To the extent that it represents an internal political victory upstaged by a flashier piece of showmanship, on the other hand, I think it&#039;s just hard chips.

Two further thoughts: it may be that the effect on RC institutions will be at least as important as that on the C of E, in the long run.  And, I wonder if this will end up having any effect on the country&#039;s constitutional arrangements?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like your &#8216;Regional General Managers&#8217; analogy, Adrian, but I think it serves more to mask the underlying issues than to address them — in another context, I wonder if you&#8217;d want to say there was rather more to being a bishop than this?</p>
<p>I like the cloth ceiling image as well, and I can just imagine a sonorous voice intoning, &#8220;You are now entering the Circle of Purple Worsted&#8230;&#8221; <i>(or of course not entering, as the case may be)</i>.  And yet, looking at the whole thing as if it were simply about career opportunities for church professionals is surely a bit of a caricature, as well.  At least, I hope it is.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s an unspoken assumption in your piece, too, that the secular consensus on gender roles is the right thing for the church to follow.  Now, it may be, but I don&#8217;t think that ought simply to be taken as read, as if an obvious and compelling demonstration of the essential godliness of the secular take on this were common knowledge.</p>
<p>(Oh, and on a purely anorak level, you always knew there was a bit more to biological maleness than <i>in utero</i> testosterone levels&#8230;)</p>
<p>As a relative outsider looking in on this, I guess the Rich Brown Bus Fleet&#8217;s statement must be remarkable for what it doesn&#8217;t say, rather than for what it does.  The C of E does &#8216;emollient&#8217; supremely well!</p>
<p>Overall, I&#8217;m left with the thought that, to the extent that this Apostolic Constitution business represents a sad refusal to acknowledge a case carefully, gently and persuasively made, it&#8217;s a shame.  To the extent that it represents an internal political victory upstaged by a flashier piece of showmanship, on the other hand, I think it&#8217;s just hard chips.</p>
<p>Two further thoughts: it may be that the effect on RC institutions will be at least as important as that on the C of E, in the long run.  And, I wonder if this will end up having any effect on the country&#8217;s constitutional arrangements?</p>
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